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Observations of grit size and cutting performance in scythe blades, and some questions... (no replies)

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As a slight preface, some facts to lay out that play a role in what follows: scythe blades cut using a pushing slice from right to left, the blade riding the ground on its spine. The edge is held above the ground by about 1/2" on average, the edge being roughly 14-18° included angle and the steel being low-alloy carbon steel similar to 1080. In European scythes the blade is tempered down to an average of 45 RC and the bevel maintained by peening to draw out a hollow single-beveled edge and American blades (my preferred) are an average of 58 RC and beveled by grinding equally on both sides. Honing is done with a stone making passes from heel to toe to set a forward-angled scratch pattern.

I've found that the greatest mechanism causing dulling in use is deformation of the edge, and so 2 out of 3 honing sessions (done at roughly 15 minute intervals whenever there's a noticeable drop in cutting performance) that just using a oval piece of bare wood (known as a "whipping stick") to strop the edge realigns the apex without having to use an abrasive. In certain kinds of growth, different edge preparations give different results, and on some light, hard, waxy grasses like dry sparse fescues respond best to setting a coarse scratch pattern (about 200 grit) followed by a very light pass of a fine stone (about 600 grit) then stropping with the whipping stick, while very lush vegetation like young timothy, dandelions, and clover are cut best with a finer scratch pattern and overall polish. Thick grasses like mature timothy and orchard grass seem to respond best to a medium grit edge (about 320-400).

All of these edges respond better when finished off with the whipping stick, and I'm wondering if anyone has a good technical description for how this effect is being produced and if SEM or other microscope imaging has been done comparing such angular scratch patterns when finished on bare wood or coarse grits given a light pass or two from a much finer stone and then stropped on wood. I have some ideas about what's going on, but would be interested to see if photographs confirm or refute my suspicions.

You can see my use of a stone and whipping stick at the beginning of the second clip in the below video, which also serves as a good example of the results produced. When well honed I can take the top off of single fine stalks of grass with little motion.
video: [www.youtube.com]

Using the 3-Step Method/Plateau Sharpening for Serrated Knives (no replies)

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Since working with the serrated Spyderco and Byrd Hawkbills, the best way I have found to maximize the ease of sharpening is to use a King 1k resin bond and any one of these type will do: Spyderco Sintered Ceramic Rod (Sharpmaker Triangle or Profile)/Lanksy Ceramic Rod/Gatco Tri-Ceps. Cut off the apex, lay the flat side to the stone and sharpen until it no longer reflects light, then use the rounds or corners of the stones to micro-bevel to desired finish. For higher finishes other than the medium/brown/grey rods, insert 2k-4k resin bond stone for Fine (white) ceramic finish, for UF add 6k-8k resing bond then micro-bevel.

Edge Thickens at Plunge Line (5 replies)

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ApostleP video:

[youtu.be]

Now, swoopy plunge lines and the edge thickening at the base of the blade is not much of an issue if you freehand sharpen, but can be a nightmare for those who use a jig/sharpening system if you want these two things:
1: the whole blade sharpened
2: a cosmetic edge finish

If you sharpen professionally, this can be your bread and butter for customers orders.

There's a few ways to fix this problem, JDavis mentioned in a video on a ZT to adjust the angle on the system, and you can always spot sharpen by hand. But as it is mentioned in the video by Rob, it can be looked at as a design flaw or issue.

Has anyone else had a problem with this, or come up with a solution?

EDC Knife Optimization (no replies)

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Video:


Cliff Stamp (Kershaw Junkyard Dog Regrind)

[youtu.be]


Does anyone else run there EDC blades like this? It's absolutely fantastic...it performs almost like a pure zero grind, and is easily repaired and sharpened. Is there any reason not to run a pocket knife ground like this? Alexander Noot (Little Undertaker knife) and Kyle (KWB small knife) were ground similarly, very thin and a small edge bevel, and they cut awesome. Too bad I lost the Little Undertaker....I need to order another one.

Japanese waterstones (6 replies)

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Hello all,

I need some expertise concerning water stones.
I'm not familiar with water stones, although I did purchase a king 1k years ago, and I don't care for it. Before I bought the king I did some research on the stone online, and everybody seemed to say it gives the edge the same results as a soft Arkansas. I disagree agree I think the soft Arkansas gives a finer finish, because that's were I typically stop. I don't like mirror edges, but something around 600-800 USA grit.

So I've had my eyes on a Chosera 1k, because from what I've read it polishes way beyond its grit level as all Chosera stones do. On the unified grit chart it is around 800 USA grit. I don't know what a king 1k would be in USA grit. Would I be wasting my money if I buy another 1k stone? Is the Chosera 1k way finer than a king 1k? Any suggestions? Thanks

Congress Tools Mold Master Stones (1 reply)

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I just got a set of these in 80, 150, 320, & 600 grits. So far I've only used the 320 & 600 much. They are proving problematic. The 600 is quite soft it seems. Even the final apexing passes will produce a bit of slurry on the stone and the edge of the 320 is sharper, though far from ideal. Anyone have any experience with these? Several on bladeforums use them, most notably Ankerson's on the edge pro and report high sharpness though he stops at 400 grit.

On the upside the 600 did a good job as a prep stone before going to the Sharpmaker on my 110V Manix. My BD1 Voyager still takes the prize in being much sharper of the Sharpmaker, but the Manix is at least comparable. Based on steel Aline is carry the Voyager over the Manix. The Voyager has some non steel related issues though.

Favorite Stropping Compounds & Mediums (1 reply)

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For maximizing push cutting and removal or reduction of the "micro-burr" ie a burr that can't be seen or felt, after a proper sharpening, what stropping compounds and mediums have worked the best for you with knives(straight razors are a different topic)? How many PPS (passes per side)? Which ones didn't work?

Personally, for compounds, I have tried MetalGlo, MothersMag & Aluminum Polish, Enkay White, Green, Red, & Blue, Flexcut Gold Compound, Newspaper, and reclaimed stone slurry.

For mediums used with compound, I have used a Canvas and Leather Hanging Barbers Strop, MDF, old leather belts, cardboard/paperboard, Flexcut 8" Strop, a notebook like Kylie's stropping experiment, and the inside of denim jeans.

My favorite combination of compounds (in no particular order of preference), Mothers on denim, Mothers on Cardboard, Flexcut Gold on Flexcut 8" Strop, Enkay Green on Cardboard, Enkay Red on Cardboard, and plain Newsprint (ala Murray Carter). I usually only use 2 passes per side, one heel to tip and one tip to heel.

Edit:
I forgot Hunter Seeker 5's CrOx spray, which I like a lot and use on a paintstick, leather belt, or cardboard when I want then most refining I can get. It just cuts slower than the other compounds for me, so it takes about 20 PPS.

Easiest Way For High Sharpness Edge (3 replies)

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I have been thinking about easier ways to get high sharpness edges, ie head hair whittling( mostly a push cutting measurement, 3x90° x-grain push cut on phonebook paper), and at the least beard hair (3x90° with the grain phonebook paper push cut) whittling. What is the easiest way (stones, techniques, sharpening systems) that work for you?
I am talking about sharpness and equipment/techniques like this:

[youtu.be]

[youtu.be]

[youtu.be]


For me, using Cliff's burrless sharpening with muddy stones to prepare the apex, and then apexing/microbeveling/deburring with a sintered ceramic hone or high grit diamond plate (followed by a fewpasses on a loaded strop, if desired or necessary) or using Murry Carter's waterstone technique works the best for me freehand. The Edge-Pro Clone, Gatco EdgeMaker, Lanksy Diamond 4-Rod Turndox, DMT Magna-Guide Aligner workbest for me as far as guided systems achieving head-hair whittling sharpness.

Also, it makes high-sharpeness edges (mostly measured by push cutting) to finish with higher grit abrasives, ie 4k+ JIS grit. Is there an easy way to reach this sharpness level with coarser grits (325# diamond, Fine India, Soft Arkansas, 1k King, ect), as it takes some effort to achieve this for me.

Top 8 Sharpening Stones on Amazon (4 replies)

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Video and Wiki, showing the top 8 sharpening stones in ranked order with small blurbs based on reviews...I think I have only used the King 1k side of any of these stones, I don't recognize most of the brands other than the KAI, King, and Smith's:

[youtu.be]

[wiki.ezvid.com]

Removal/Prevention of the Undetectable Micro-Burr (1 reply)

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Other than not creating a burr in the first place, what can be done when sharpening about the small, undetectable by sight and feel, micro-burrs? Especially when they effect performance, which is how I notice them, since I have a hard time finding them with my regular burr detection techniques. I have found that some knives/steels are more prone to this, just like detectable burrs, but it can really hamper getting a very high sharpness level. Maybe it's part of the edge stability formula, I don't know. Cutting off the apex before sharpening helps, maybe jointing the knife before apexing might help:

[youtu.be]

I have found that standard burr minimization, removal, and back sharpening help, along with a pasted strop and minimum passes, but not always.....

Analog for the Naniwa Aotoshi 2k "Green Brick of Joy" (2 replies)

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Since the Naniwa 2k Aotoshi "Green Brick of Joy" is only available from a very few sellers in the USA/Canada, I had been wondering if anyone had used a stone that had similar grit and the desired muddy slurry. I have a Suehiro 1k/3k stone and a Norton 4k/8k, and I use the 3k and 4k side after the 1k King or 1k side of the Steelex/Woodstock 1k/6k which is very muddy like the King 1k. But the Suehiro 3k and Norton 4k have a watery slurry, and even if I generated a slurry with a slurry stone beforehand, they still can form a burr if I am not careful. The polish is there, as the Suehiro 3k almost looks as polished as the 6k Steelex/Woodstock hone. The 4k polishes if a little loaded, but not as good as the Suehiro 1k/3k.

So basically, has anyone used or knows of a colloidal slurry forming 2k-4k hone that's readily available?

AG Russell Knife Sharpening Series (no replies)

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First two videos of AG Russell's ideas on knife sharpening and sharpening stones:

[youtu.be]

[youtu.be]

Anyone that likes using Arkansas stones is good in my book, and AG Russell's a legend!

I can't wait to see the whole thing....the SiC stone not working for modern stones is intriguing, maybe he is talking about finishing with the SiC hone.

Steel Drake makes sharpening videos (11 replies)

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I recently decided I wanted to make a few sharpening videos to share some of what I've managed to learn about sharpening as I sorted through the enormous mountain of half-truths mixed with lies found in the online conventional wisdom about the subject.

I started by making a brief tutorial on burr based sharpening aimed at complete beginners to freehanding. I've ended up coming to believe that a total beginner is probably better off learning a burr based approach at first, as at the very least the formation of a full length burr on both sides can largely eliminate the most common problem new sharpeners are going to have.

video: [youtu.be]

I've got more videos shot that I'm still in the process of editing and uploading, but I wanted to post those so I could get any feedback, comments, criticisms, etc. ASAP.

Preparation of the Apex Above the Micro-Bevel Grit (5 replies)

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I was thinking, for the 3-Step, and particularly the Plateau Method, would it make apexing the edge easier if you took the grit for preparing the apex higher than what you want to apex with? Like using a 2k-4k stone to prepare the bevel to take a 1k apex? I think Steel Drake would take his bevels up to 13k with the Sigma Power Select II stones, but I can't remember if that was just for taking the Spyderco UF apex.

Hapstone Sharpening System (no replies)

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The maker of this admits to being influenced/inspired/copying the Edge Pro, and it come with some improvements most people add to the Edge Pro's as standard, along with the capability to use standard 6"x2" and up to 8"x2" hones, along with a nice selection on their website (link is in the YouTube descripton):


[youtu.be]

Edit:
Here's the link:
[www.gritomatic.com]

Testing SiC Wet/Dry Paper on Plate Glass, Edge Into Sharpening Trials (My take on the Scary Sharp method) (12 replies)

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One of my favorite ways to sharpen a knife to a mirror polish for cheap is using SiC Wet/Dry paper. Also, when I would have problems sharpening a knife, my go to used to be SiC Wet/Dry paper. After learning how to detect a burr better, and get a hard to sharpen knife to apex, plus getting a better grit range of quality hones, (extra coarse, coarse, medium, fine, extra fine) I haven't used papers for much other than to flatten and/or condition stones, on a 1/4" plate glass piece about 10"x12" that is being sold along with slabs of granite and PSA abrasive rolls, which got me to thinking, along with the package of 3M polishing cloths I have (30 micron-1 micron), that if I could get edge leading passes without cutting up the abrasive sheet, it would be a nice way to get a mirror polish on knives if desired, or to try out different grit finishes or combinations of grit progressions, since so many grits are available readily. So I took some sheets, a glue stick, cut the sheets into 2.25"x5.25" inch pieces, and glued it to one side of the glass. These sizes allowed me to get each grit (120, 320, 600, 1500, and 2500) on the glass and still have access along the whole edge, which for knives is necessary, unlike chisels, where at the store they had three strips side by side, since with a chisel the hanle is opposite the cutting blade rather than in line with it. When using the 3M polishing cloths, when wet, I could easily do edge leading passes, without much caution, as the glass and water made the paper cloth stick very well. I will see how the glue stick does with the SiC Wet/Dry paper, and how easy it is to remove and replace with a razor blade, and how long they'll last.

Edit:
So I am just trying to see if I can do edge leading passes without cutting into the paper.

An Old Sharpening Tool (2 replies)

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I'm not entirely sure how old this is, but it's in pretty good shape:






The only thing is that the stone has a very slight amount of play in the handle. I'm not sure how to fix that so if anyone has any suggestions, let me know. Right now I'm thinking of putting some JB Weld in that area to seal it and hold it tighter. I'm not sure what grit the stone is but it appears pretty fine, far finer than a fine India. It's hard to tell though when it's a bit worn/loaded. I want to flatten and recut the surface and round the edges a little more. I'm hoping it will make a nice tool for apexing or field maintenance for machetes or large knives. I have used a 4x1 soft Arkansas for that in the past but this is quite different. The stone is almost certainly not a natural like Novaculite or something, it seems like a vitrified bond that's fairly porous, something in between an India and Crystolon. It absorbs oil pretty quickly, much more than any of my other stones at the moment. It's probably just really dry from being old and not used often.

Does this seem like a good idea to you guys? I just put it in there this morning:

Free Hand vs. Jig? (23 replies)

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Does anyone here know, or believe, that they are capable of putting a finer edge on a blade via free-hand sharpening as opposed to using a well known jig system (ie. Wicked Edge, Tormek, Edge Pro)?

I understand that most jig systems limit the angle you can set the edge to. For instance the Wicked Edge is limited to 15 degrees per side (at least it was the last time I checked.) For the purposes of this question, the edge angle would be set to 15 degrees per side.

Differing effects of slurry on a King 1k and SPS-II 1k on identical knives (8 replies)

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As I mentioned in the thread about my YouTube videos, I'd recently noticed something unexpected on my two Spyderco PM2's in CPM-M4 (yes, I bought both the BladeHQ and Knifeworks dealer exclusives): I'd shaped the edge bevel on one of them using a King 1000 and then set an apex microbevel using Spyderco M rods, and I quite liked the balance of push-cutting sharpness and slicing aggression I got, so I decided to replicate the finish on the other one.

I shaped the edge bevel of the other one using my Sigma Power Select II 1000 and then again set an apex microbevel using my Spyderco M rods. Imagine my surprise when the apex on the second knife turned out significantly finer (more push cutting sharpness, less slicing aggression) than the first, even though both blades had identical steels and virtually identical geometries.

The first thing I did was examine both edges under my USB microscope, and it was apparent that the edge bevel that had been shaped on the King 1000 showed a much more directional (i.e. vertical up and down) scratch pattern than the edge bevel that had been shaped on the SPS-II 1000, which showed a much more randomized scratch pattern.

I also double checked that the difference hadn't just been an aberration by cutting off the apex that I had just set on the second knife which I'd used the SPS-II 1000 on and re-shaped the edge bevel on the King 1000, and again applied an apex microbevel using my Spyderco M rods. This time, I obtained very similar balance of push cutting sharpness and slicing aggression to the first knife, and under my USB microscope, the scratch pattern on the edge bevel appeared similarly directional to the first knife.

I had an intuition as to what had caused the difference, and I decided to investigate it further by taking one of my Calton Cutlery 1095 neckers and shaping the edge bevel on it on both the King 1000 and SPS-II 1000, while altering how much of a slurry was on the stone when I started.

In all cases I flattened the waterstone immediately prior to use, and only varied whether I deliberately raised a thick mud, only did enough work to flatten the stone, or rinsed off the slurr left from flattening prior to use. In all cases my passes were made with complete heel to toe back and forth passes using low force.

Also note that all microscopic images are taken with a USB microscope with 50x optical and 4x digital zoom, at max combined zoom.

The first image is of the edge bevel as shaped on the King 1000 with a moderate amount of slurry on the stone. By moderate I mean the amount of slurry created by flattening the stone without working extra to deliberately create a thick layer of mud on the stone.

As you can see, even with a moderate slurry present, the King 1000 still creates a fairly directional scratch pattern.



The second image is of the edge bevel as shaped on the Sigma Power Select II 1000 with a moderate amount of slurry on the stone from flattening.

By contrast, the scratch pattern here shows significantly less directionality and appears to have been much more affected by three-body abrasion.

I believe that this difference, which was even more pronounced on the two Spyderco PM2's in M4, explains why the one with the edge bevel shaped on the King 1000 showed more slicing aggression and less push cutting sharpness than the one with he edge bevel shaped on the SPS-II 1000.



This third image shows the edge bevel as shaped on the SPS-II 1000, however in this case all slurry was rinsed off the stone prior to use.

As you can see, in this case the SPS-II 1000 produced a similarly directional scratch pattern to that which had been produced by the King 1000 above.



This fourth image shows the edge bevel as shaped on the King 1000, however in this case I deliberate raised a thick mud on the stone well in excess to that I normally create when flattening my waterstones prior to use.

This time the King 1000 produced a much less directional scratch pattern than previously, and obviously shows much more evidence of three-body abrasion from the slurry on the stone.



This final image shows the edge bevel as shaped on the King 1000, however this time I rinsed off any slurry present.

As expected, we see a very directional scratch pattern when the stone is used without a significant slurry.



What was most interesting to me was that the King 1000 showed much less difference in the scratch pattern produced between no slurry and a moderate slurry than the Sigma Power Select II 1000 did. Only when a very thick mud was deliberately created on the King 1000 did it begin to produce a similar extent of three-body abrasion.

I have a conjecture as to why this is the case, based on information we already have about these two stones. We already know that the King 1000 uses aluminum oxide abrasive and a resin binder, while the SPS-II stones use much harder silicon carbide abrasive and have almost no binder:

This leads me to think that the slurry produced by the SPS-II stone contains a much higher density of abrasive particles, and those abrasive particles will be less likely to break down, leading to the slurry produced by the SPS-II 1000 to be more abrasive and induce much more three-body abrasion per volume of slurry than the slurry produced by the King 1000. Or at least, that's the best theory I can come up with to fit the available evidence.

It also serves as a great example of just how much the behaviour of waterstones can change based on how they are used. Just varying the amount of slurry created on the stone prior to use was able to create large differences in the scratch pattern obtained.

Non friable stone options betwen a DMT EF and Spyderco M? (4 replies)

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I've been trying out some coarser apex finishes recently and I've realized that I have a fairly large gap in my collection of non friable abrasives of stones finer than a DMT EF but coarser than a Spyderco M.

Basically I'm just looking for an ordered list of suggestions of solid non-friable abrasives that would be between these two in grits so I can figure out what I want to pick up to mess around with. I assume some of the Arkansas stones would be options, but I'm not sure where they fit between those two stones.
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